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Peter Hook on revisiting ‘Substance’, touring with The Light, and the legacy of Joy Division and New Order

Ready to relive the magic of 'Substance'? Peter Hook & The Light are touring the US, UK, and Ireland, performing Joy Division and New Order’s classic tracks live. Find out what it takes to bring these iconic songs to the stage and how they still hit home with fans.

Peter Hook & The Light are set to illuminate stages across the US in September, and UK and Ireland in October and November 2024, as part of their extensive tour to perform the Substance albums by Joy Division and New Order in their entirety. Peter Hook, co-founder of both Joy Division and New Order, began revisiting his earlier works with a performance of Unknown Pleasures in May 2010. Since then, Hook has sequentially explored each album, leading up to the performances of the Substance compilations, which includes seminal tracks such as Blue Monday by New Order and Love Will Tear Us Apart by Joy Division.

The Substance albums, released by Factory Records in 1987 and 1988, compile key singles and tracks from both Joy Division and New Order. Through their performances, Peter Hook & The Light are committed to preserving the legacy of Ian Curtis and the foundational sounds of Manchester’s post-punk scene, while also bringing these influential works to new audiences around the world. In this exclusive interview with Bass Empire, Peter Hook shared his evolving relationship with these seminal works and their impact on new audiences.

Peter Hook detailed his journey with the albums: “I’m very lucky because I’ve been able to jump backwards and forwards between them. We actually started playing ‘Substance’ around 2012-13. After a break where we played other LPs, we’ve now come back to it.” He also explained the utilitarian origins of the New Order compilation: “The interesting thing about the ‘Substance’ records was that ‘Substance New Order’ was literally done so our record company boss could play all our singles because they weren’t together in any format in his car. So, it was the LP we did for nothing. It cost us virtually nothing to record and it sold incredibly well around the world. In fact, it sold 3 million copies of a double vinyl in America alone.”

Hook elaborated on the experience of performing the albums live: “The interesting thing for New Order was that they moved on and never actually played these songs together. We’d play a few of them in a set, but we were always featuring different LPs and different tracks. So, to actually play them all together is quite interesting for me, to see the contrast between the songs and the memories they evoke.”

“Playing these albums together is quite challenging, not only for us but also for the audience, because they’re so different.”

Challenges of Live Performances

Discussing the contrasting styles of the two Substance albums, Hook noted the unique challenges they present: “‘Substance’ by New Order is a different LP. It’s poppy and very commercial, with those singles achieving great success worldwide. ‘Substance’ by Joy Division, however, is a completely different record with a distinct feel. Playing them together is quite challenging, not only for us but also for the audience, because they’re so different.”

He shared his observations on audience engagement: “It has been a challenge, and I’ve noticed that over the time that we’ve been playing it, our audience—which includes both Joy Division and New Order fans—has been brought together by these two LPs. You see a lot of Joy Division T-shirts, a lot of New Order T-shirts. Keeping them all involved in both has become easier now that I’ve got my head around it than when we first did it.”
When asked about the shift in energy between the segments dedicated to each band, Hook observed, “I did notice, and I will be honest, there was a shift to the bar. That’s how you tell, isn’t it? It’s when everyone goes to the bar.” He shared a recent experience that highlighted this dynamic: “We played ‘Substance’ in Antwerp, in a wonderful open-air amphitheater. It’s very rare that we get a predominantly Joy Division audience, but in Antwerp, we definitely had one. So when we played New Order, it was well received, but it was just okay. We’re not used to that now because they usually mix so well. So when we came up after New Order, we felt something different. I wondered if they were a Joy Division audience. Then, when we went on and played Joy Division, they went absolutely wild, so obviously they were.” Hook elaborated on the broader trend he has observed at concerts: “These days, we tend to attract fans who like both bands, which is nice. And I think the thing is that you work very hard to put the same amount of effort into each one. I don’t want them to sound different from each other. I want to maintain a consistent thread throughout that I believe everyone enjoys. Antwerp was the exception. That doesn’t happen often, but on that occasion, there were definitely more Joy Division fans than New Order. But normally, it’s pretty even.”

Photo: Courtesy of Peter Hook

“As soon as Ian Curtis heard that, he’d go, ‘Whoa, do that again. That sounds great!'”

Joy Division & New Order

Reflecting on the distinctive sound of Joy Division, the striking difference from the more traditional rock setup where guitars dominated was immediately noticeable. The bass, instead, drove their music with a palpable force. “It was purely ego,” Hook admitted. “I’m not standing at the back, you know, where you got all the girls? Yeah, it was as simple as that.” He went on to explain the practical reasons behind this decision: “I remember when we were writing, and Bernard (Sumner) would occasionally say to me, ‘Can you follow the guitar on this?’ And I’d go, ‘No, why would I want to do that? No, I don’t like that.’ So, in a funny way, it was a combination of ego and, more realistically, my equipment was worse than Barney’s. To cut through when we were jamming, I would have to play high on the high strings.”

Hook also credited Ian Curtis with recognising the potential in his approach: “As soon as Ian Curtis heard that, he’d go, ‘Oh, whoa, okay, okay, do that again. That sounds great.’ So really, in a funny way, and he’s here on my wall in front of me, I have him to thank for hearing that and recognising it was worth pursuing.”

Hook shared a personal anecdote to illustrate the significance of this approach: “My daughter and my wife bought me a new watch recently, by a company called Christopher Ward—an English company, but it’s a Swiss watch—and it plays a note every hour. The note it plays is D. Now, most of the Joy Division songs were written in D, so this watch is perfect. Every time we get to the hour and it dings and it goes, D, I go, ‘Yeah, an open D,’ you know? Because ‘She’s Lost Control,’ ‘Insight,’ ‘24 Hours,’ they all featured the open D, just like ‘Age of Consent’ did and ‘Love Will Tear Us Apart’ did.”

“We were a punk band. We basically wanted to go on stage and sound like the Sex Pistols or The Clash.”

Reflecting on Joy Division’s sound, Hook acknowledged the role of their producer, Martin Hannett, in shaping their music: “I think we have to be humble enough to thank Martin Hannett, the producer, for seeing something in us that we didn’t see. We were a punk band. We basically wanted to go on stage and sound like the Sex Pistols or The Clash. And he just went, ‘You’re an idiot. You’ve got something more.’ I mean, we were 21, we really didn’t know, as we say in England, our arse from our elbow. At 21, we had an idea, after seeing the Sex Pistols, of what we wanted to be like, and Martin Hannett gave us something that was in another realm. He gave our music the gift of eternal life, if you like, with his production. It was amazing.”

However, Hook admitted that the band didn’t immediately appreciate Hannett’s work: “Barney and I hated it at first. Absolutely hated it. We couldn’t believe that anybody would take our music and give us this. The fact that everybody disagreed with us drove us crazy. It was the strangest thing. We lost Joy Division anyway when Ian died. We lost it, literally—we lost it for 30 years. So, in a funny way, with New Order, we managed to rectify the fragility that Martin used to make Joy Division as haunting as they were. We managed to bolster that, shall we say, with technology, and used both aspects of it. We learned. Martin taught us how to produce with Joy Division, moving through to New Order. He did give us a gift, I have to say.”

Photo: Rhona Murphy

“I sound the way I remember and love it.”

In discussing the approach to revisiting Joy Division’s tracks for live performances, Peter Hook emphasized his commitment to maintaining the original essence of the music. He explained his philosophy regarding changes to his basslines: “There’s not been a riff that I have changed. I think there’s a certain amount of respect that you have to show to your audience. And the thing is, we are advertising playing ‘Substance’. If they came along and they were hearing some kind of interpretation, I’ll leave that to New Order, who seem to make it their gimmick to alter everything that we did. To my mind, it’s not as successful as they think it is, but my gimmick, if you like, is that I sound the way I remember and love it. And looking out at my audience, I think that we share the same passion for that sound in that period, and basically we’re reliving it. So, I don’t change it. No, if anything, we work very, very hard to make sure that we capture the right sound from every point of view to make it true to the records.”

When discussing the enduring appeal of tracks like Love Will Tear Us Apart and Blue Monday, Hook spoke about how these songs maintain their impact over the years, continually uncovering new dimensions. “‘Love Will Tear Us Apart’ is a very unusual pop song because of its very dark lyric and message. ‘Blue Monday’ is interesting because, as an artist playing it every night, you might think familiarity would breed contempt. But as soon as you play that beat, everyone goes bananas, and you get carried away, which is fantastic. ‘Love Will Tear Us Apart’ has the same effect; as soon as I play that intro, wow. The power of playing a few bars of music that makes everybody forget and enjoy the moment is wonderful, and that’s what I live for. We can’t change the world—most of us can’t, anyway. But to be able to at least find a place where we are safe, and we can go back to a time that was simpler for all of us is just a gift. It’s like stealing a moment from the world. And it’s the same when I go and see any of the artists I love; we steal a moment away from the world. Those wonderful memories and the evocative music that carries us through those memories are wonderful. I count myself very lucky to be able to indulge in this way.”

Peter Hook revealed plans for upcoming performances and reflected on the expansive repertoire of his band: “Next year we’re playing the next New Order album. We’ve played all the ones up to ‘Get Ready.’ So, we’re planning to play ‘Get Ready’ in full next year. I’m not sure whether that will tour globally, but we’ll have to wait and see. It would be great to get those tracks back and add them to my arsenal. When we were together as New Order, we could play about 17 songs at most. With The Light, all five of us can play 100 songs right off the bat, and it’s fantastic. I’m hoping that knowing all these songs and words will keep dementia at bay.”

Photo: Mark McNulty

Choosing Yamaha Models

Peter Hook delved into the specifics of the bass models and gear he currently uses on tour, highlighting a blend of vintage and modern equipment. “Interestingly, the guitar that I’m featuring at the moment is my Yamaha, my BB 1200s, which I purchased back in 1980. Yamaha very kindly remade it for me, so now it’s the Peter Hook model. I use that, which features a three-way active switch and a 15 dB boost, which I like. I’m using it through Ampeg gear and also employing the Line 6 Helix as a preamp. I’ve been using my old Electro-Harmonix Clone Theory pedal for chorus since 1977, so it’s a good mixture of new and old.”

He also touched on the beneficial relationships he’s developed with his equipment sponsors, a contrast to his earlier years with New Order: “Luckily for me, Yamaha now owns Ampeg and Line 6, so I’m in a great position. It was amazing that as New Order, we were never sponsored by anyone. We never had any company sponsor us. So, finding Yamaha, which came about through Smashing Pumpkins when my son went to play bass for them—they were sponsored by Yamaha. The Yamaha guy, Scott, who was a fan of New Order and Joy Division, noticed I was using a Yamaha bass. When he learned how old it was and that every song New Order has written on the four-string was on this bass, he was impressed. He said, ‘That’s incredible. I’m going to get Yamaha to remake that guitar for you.’ And lo and behold, God bless him, he actually did it as a Peter Hook signature model, and it did really well.”

Hook explained the practical benefits of this partnership: “Now I use the remakes, which is great because my 1980 models, which I used to take to America or Brazil and were irreplaceable, can now stay at home. I take the remake, which is almost exactly the same, and I don’t have to worry about losing them anymore. It captures the sound perfectly. I’m very happy. Now, not on a Coldplay ‘save the planet’ thing, but simply as a way to earn some money, we don’t take our gear abroad with us. We only take the guitars and the sequences. Everything else is hired where we are. And luckily, again, because Ampegs are now so widespread and standardized, I can use Ampeg all around the world and still get my sound, which I’m very grateful for.”

Peter Hook delved into the history and reasons behind his choice of the Yamaha BB series guitars, highlighting a journey of personal preference influenced by both circumstance and design. Hook recalled his initial encounter with the Yamaha models: “I bought a BB 600 which was a great guitar, and it had an extra fret on the neck, so it went really high up. ‘The Perfect Kiss’ is played with the last fret on the neck on the Yamaha. And it was just a fantastic guitar because it had a straight-through neck. I realized that as soon as I played it. It cost £295 in 1980.”

However, a turn of events in America led to a significant upgrade: “When I went to America, it was stolen. So in America, I had to replace it, and I replaced it with a BB 1200 but wasn’t active. “But the BB 1200, with a straight-through neck, made it have more sustain. It also kept its tuning really well, and I was happier. They did me a favor when they took the 600, to replace it with the 1200 BB—it was a much better guitar.”
Upon returning to England, his discovery in a music shop solidified his preference: “I came back to England with the 1200 and every Saturday afternoon, my friends and I would go and tour the music shops. I’m sure kids do it now, go and tour the music shops and see what they’ve got and all that lot. I went in and they had a BB 1200 S in, and I said to the guy in the shop, ‘What does the S mean?’ He said, ‘Oh, it’s Special; it’s got a three-way active.’ So then I had the straight-through neck with a three-way active with a 15 dB boost, and I was over the moon.”

Hook also touched on his collaboration with other manufacturers for different instruments: “I’ve had my Shergold six-string, which I mainly use for New Order, remade by a company in England called Eastwood, who now do a wonderful copy of that. So I don’t have to take my Shergolds with me anymore. I now use those copies, which sound just the same. They’ve done an amazing job of rebuilding those guitars. Really amazing. I’m lucky to be quite spoiled at this point in time, as I’m well looked after. And if British Airways decide to send them to Mongolia, then, you know, it’s not the heartache it could have been.”

“It felt quite toxic in New Order, and there was a reluctance to enjoy anything.”

Performance Milestones

Peter Hook reflected on his vast experience performing live, especially contrasting his current project, Peter Hook and the Light, with his past tenure in New Order:
“I think we’re coming up to 1.000 shows now, which is much more than I ever played with New Order. The thing is, it’s simply about enjoying it. I enjoy it so much now, and I’ve come to realize, in a typical dysfunctional family way that most groups suffer from, that the group that wrote the music couldn’t stand each other. That’s not novel—most groups are like that. I think that for all of us to find our true enjoyment of it, we had to get rid of each other. It felt quite toxic in New Order, and there was a reluctance to enjoy anything. That actually led to me splitting the band because I just felt that we were playing badly, our attitude was awful towards the fans and the music, and we needed to stop, which is what we did. They decided to take the name, working against my wishes, and use it for what they’re doing. But now, the freedom to actually delve into any part of our repertoire is what fires me up. When we play, we can literally choose between 300-400 tracks to play, whereas, in New Order, we were restricted to the same 17-20 tracks over and over again. It was heartbreaking to be stuck in that rut. So what keeps me fresh is the enjoyment. We’ve been so many places around the world and actually found so many people who are just like me—great fans of Joy Division and New Order. I really do love the music, and it’s a pleasure to perform it. I must ask my son because he keeps a tally of how many shows we’re on now; we’ve done 800, so we’re definitely moving on. I’m sure he’ll let me know when it’s 1.000.”

The Authenticity of Classic Recordings

Peter Hook reflects on the impact of technological advances on music production and how they influence the authenticity and emotional intensity of recordings. Asked if he ever considered how the songs might have sounded if recorded with today’s technology, Hook was clear about the potential drawbacks. “No, no. If anything, to be honest with you, watching the way computers came in and changed how music was recorded, it just gave you so much choice that musicians aren’t good at making decisions. And Bernard, in particular, was really bad at making decisions. So, you would be cutting and pasting, doing this and that, whereas if you look at a track like ‘Blue Monday,’ once it was recorded, you couldn’t change it, not at all. And there’s a beauty in that. It’s the mistakes in ‘Blue Monday’ that make it a very interesting track — the odd bar lengths and things like that, which, if they popped up now on a computer, you would fix. So I think the beauty and a lot of old music with the analog sound as well, it’s softer and more enriching.”
Hook then shared his recent experience with vinyl, underscoring his preference for analog sounds: “I mean, I bought two LPs this week, actually, which I couldn’t resist. I bought them in Spain, and I was so happy to see them. 180 gram newly pressed. This one’s remastered by Jimmy Page, so I’m really looking forward to putting these two records on (IV by Led Zeppelin and The Doors’ self-titled).”

Continuing, Hook mused on the hypothetical scenario of classic bands recording with modern technology: “In all honesty, I don’t think that if you got The Doors together and put them in a modern recording studio with modern techniques, I’m not too sure you’d make a better record. There is something that you’ve captured, that we were lucky, if you like, to capture in those days, and you talk to any kid that listens to it, and it has a magic that I’m not too sure groups capture now. I mean, it might be just because of the technology. It makes it so much easier, yet you’re instantly losing a bit of soul in it while you’re doing it. Because it’s easy, it’s weird.”

“The great thing about listening to ‘Substance’ and playing it, is that those records were caught in very emotional circumstances.”

Hook elaborates on his current practices and the challenges of over-editing due to technology: “I use computers all the time, cutting and pasting, doing things, but I do try to leave a little bit of feel, because if you harp back to any record that you love from the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, even the ’90s, there’s a lot of feeling, because the bands didn’t have a lot of money, so the recording studio was expensive, and you had a limit. You had to finish. Now, no one ever finishes. They just carry on ad infinitum. I see people on the train doing remixes on the computer. My friends, people I work with, they’ve got the computer, right? ‘Oh, I’m just remixing the track.’ I’m like, ‘Leave it alone, mate. You’ve been doing it for months.’ It’s funny. You become too wrapped up in what you’re doing.”

Finally, Hook reflects on the focused, financially constrained recording sessions of the past: “My engineer is the same, you know, you listen to a hi-hat track, and I’m going, ‘Mate, no one gives a fuck about the hi-hat track.’ I’ve never heard anybody say ever in my life, ‘Oh, the thing I don’t like about that record is the hi-hat.’ You sort of lose focus, don’t you? It’s interesting. The great thing about listening to ‘Joy Division Substance’ and playing it, is that those records were caught in very emotional circumstances, because you were working on a financial limit and a time limit. So things had to be done. You had to capture the right spirit. And you were always bearing in mind and not looking at it microscopically like you do now; there was an overall feel that you took into account. Martin, he’d listen to one take and go, ‘You know what, I think the other take has got a better feel,’ and we’d be like, ‘What does he mean, what is it?’ And we’d listen to the other take and not hear any difference, but he’d go, ‘No, no, that one’s got a better feel.’ We’d go, ‘What the fuck is he talking about?’ You just didn’t have the experience to pick up on it, and he taught us how to do that, and then by the time we got to New Order, we could do a take and listen to it and go, ‘You know what, that’s got a much better feel.’ Unfortunately, computers enable you to spend all your time checking the feel out and then putting it back in.”

To catch Peter Hook & The Light live and experience the full impact of the ‘Substance’ albums, be sure to check his official website for the complete list of tour dates. Don’t miss the chance to see these iconic tracks performed by the legend himself.

Yamaha BBPH: Peter Hook’s Signature Model

The BBPH model is a celebration of Peter Hook’s unique approach to bass playing, which became a defining element of the sound of Joy Division and New Order. Combining the features of Hook’s cherished BB1200S with the modern functionality of the BB734A, the bass features a bolt-on construction with a 6-bolt miter neck joint. The body is constructed from a combination of alder, maple, and alder, while the neck is crafted from a five-piece maple and mahogany combination. The rosewood fingerboard, with a 10-inch radius, hosts 21 medium frets and offers a balanced feel for both rhythm and lead playing. One of the standout features of the BBPH is the reversed VSP7n split single-coil pickup, made from Alnico V, which delivers the punchy, warm tones that are characteristic of Hook’s playing style. The bass is equipped with an active preamp that includes a 3-band EQ (bass, middle, treble) and an active/passive switch. The hardware is equally impressive, featuring a Vintage Plus bridge with convertible stringing options, brass saddles, and a steel plate for enhanced sustain and intonation.

Finished in a striking red, the BBPH Peter Hook Signature model is a limited edition release in Europe.

Joel Costa
Joel Costahttps://bassempi.re
With over two decades of experience in the music industry, I've worn many hats - from running a record label and a PR agency to contributing to esteemed publications like Metal Hammer and Terrorizer. I've also authored books on iconic subjects such as Kurt Cobain's guitars and The Beatles. My journey led me to the editor's chair of Guitarrista, a print magazine dedicated to the crafts of guitar playing and building. Despite this diverse background, my true passion has always leaned towards the bass guitar. I have a particular fondness for offset basses and play a Thunderbird.
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